Note: This post may contain statements that I no longer consider true.
See: The Vivos mRNA Appliance Didn't Improve My Obstructive Sleep Apnea.

This update has been delayed for a few reasons: My mum died in September 2021 and that’s been taking up a lot of my time and emotional energy. I had a mid-treatment CBCT scan and was concerned about the results, so I wanted to talk this over with my provider before posting about it. I also had nasal surgery to improve my daytime breathing and have been recovering from that.

I had been resisting having a mid-treatment CBCT scan that my provider wanted because I’m averse to unnecessary X-rays. The lifetime radiation risk is cumulative and when a patient ends up developing cancer years later, nobody is likely to connect the dots back to the X-ray that broke the camel’s back. Hence, I try to be as conservative as possible and had been declining my provider’s request for a mid-treatment scan.

Meanwhile, my provider suggested I start doing Myofunctional Therapy with Orofacial Myologist Rochelle McPherson to tailor exercises to my personal circumstances. Up until now I’ve been doing the exercises in a general myofunctional therapy for obstructive sleep apnea YouTube video, but seeing an actual myofunctional therapist in person is likely to give better results because they can look at what I’m doing with my facial muscles, tongue posture and swallowing reflex and give tailored exercises to improve it. Rochelle prompted me to have the CBCT scan because it’s important to verify that the treatment is progressing safely, which I had to balance against my concern about X-ray safety.

I’m glad I finally took their advice, although what the scan uncovered disturbed me greatly.

After spending some time looking at the images from multiple angles, the good news is that there is plenty of bone around my teeth and appears to be some skeletal expansion; but the bad news is that my teeth are clearly tipping.

In all the CBCT images shown below, the image on the left is from a scan taken on 7th July 2020 before treatment, and the image on the right is from 17th November 2021 after a little over 13 months of wearing my Vivos mRNA Appliance. All the measurements on the scans are in millimetres and were made by me with NNT Viewer. Caution is advised since I don’t necessarily know what I’m doing nor what to look for.

Here is a comparison of the slice through my upper wisdom teeth showing sideways maxillary expansion, with measurements between the inside (lingual) edges of the bone:

CBCT scan showing skeletal expansion and teeth tipping
Upper jaw measurements before (left) and at 13 months (right) of Vivos mRNA Appliance use.

My upper jaw (maxilla) appears to have expanded by about 1.5 mm at my wisdom teeth. However, the teeth are also clearly tipped further outwards, which I am disappointed about to say the least.

My upper front teeth have also tipped out forwards, as shown on this slice through my left front teeth (left central incisors):

Maxillary left central incisor slice before (left) and at 13 months (right) of Vivos mRNA Appliance use.

According to Cephalometric Evaluation of Incisor Position by Ellis and MacNamara, the normal relationship between the maxillary incisors and the maxilla is in the range of 108-112 degrees, so although my incisors have tipped outwards it appears that they were originally tipped inwards significantly, and in fact I’ve still got a couple of degrees to go before I’m in the normal range. I was relieved to discover this, so thanks to Doug Toombs for the reference.

I’m guessing it would start hurting when I chew on hard foods if I went too far, and I shudder to think what happens if I have a catastrophic failure. Tipping teeth outwards probably does give more tongue space, but it freaked me out so much I stopped wearing the appliance for a couple of weeks until I could talk it over with my provider, which had a big impact on my usage this month.

My provider says that we can upright the teeth again later with clear aligners without losing the gains and has taken another interoral scan to send to Vivos for analysis. The other notable thing about the 13 month scan is that my tongue is not on the roof of my mouth, which suggests I need better myofunctional therapy.

On my lower jaw I appear to have a tiny amount of skeletal expansion, although it’s so small that it could be measurement error. Mostly the teeth have just tipped out a little, whereas they tilted inwards before so this is an improvement:

Lower jaw skeletal measurement before (left) and at 13 months (right) of Vivos mRNA Appliance use.

The really bad news is that there appears to have been little if any forward growth despite 2177 hours of facemask use. My provider says I’ve had 2 mm, but I can’t see it on the scan. Forward growth is way harder to measure because there is no obvious reference point and I’m no expert at reading CBCT scans given I’ve only ever analysed my own. I tried measuring perpendicular from a line between the furthest point backwards on my skull to the lowest point at the middle of my front alveolar between my two front teeth, and there appears to be no change at all:

Forward growth measurement before (left) and at 13 months (right) of Vivos mRNA Appliance use.

Here’s the full 3D context of the forward growth measurement so you can see how I picked the point on the alveolar to measure to indicated by the blue line on the lower right image:

Without significant forward growth, I doubt the Vivos mRNA Appliance can correct my retrognathia enough to alleviate the obstruction behind my tongue and cure my sleep apnea.

My provider says I should get a millimetre of forward growth a month if I wear the face mask for 12 hours a day, but I’m sceptical. Plus, I’ve only averaged 5.3 hours/day with The Bow and 12 seems impossible unless I do nothing but lie on my bed all day, every day. I’ve never been able to sleep with The Bow because it’s too big and clunky, flipping from one side of my body to the other when I roll over in bed.

I originally chose The Bow because it doesn’t put any reverse force on the mandible which could counteract the forward pull on the maxilla. However, now I’m reconsidering how much that matters considering it’s not much use if I can’t wear it while sleeping.

The lower jaw (mandible) anchors at the Temporomandibular Joint (TMJ) which is behind the upper jaw (maxilla) on the skull, so I’m no longer convinced that pushing backwards on the mandible will counter the forward force exerted on the maxilla much. My provider supplied me with facemask which rests on the chin and forehead like the one used by Dr Felix Liao’s patients in his book 6 Foot Tiger, 3 Foot Cage. It may not be ideal, but it is much lighter so I’m more likely to be able to sleep with it. Sorry to anyone who bought a Bow based on me choosing it, especially if you can’t sleep with it; it probably is better though if you can.

I tried using the new facemask for a few nights and haven’t really gotten used to it. As with The Bow, the elastics cause drool to run out of my mouth so I’ve been sealing around them with Sleep Q+, which means I don’t need to use 3M Micropore Tape and Polident denture adhesive; but Sleep Q+ is a lot more expensive so I’ll see how I go with it.

I appear to have a tiny amount of skeletal expansion on my lower jaw, but it’s so small that it could easily be measurement error:

CBCT scan showing skeletal expansion and teeth tipping on lower jaw from 13 months of Vivos mRNA Appliance use
Lower jaw measurement at wisdom teeth before (left) and at 13 months (right) of Vivos mRNA Appliance use.

As far as my airway goes, it looks narrower at 13 months because my spine is more vertical and my head further back:

Airway before (left) and at 13 months (right) of Vivos mRNA Appliance use.

This highlights the problem with using CBCT scans to evaluate airway dimensions. I understand this is part of the Vivos protocol, but the results vary wildly with head posture and since the scans are typically taken standing up, they don’t reflect what happen when we’re lying down asleep anyway. That’s why Evan Lavizadeh just had a DISE.

The other obvious thing that my myofunctional therapist Rochelle pointed out is that my inferior turbinates were huge and mostly blocking my nasal airway. I had heard stories of Vivos improving nasal breathing and was hoping this would be the case for me but after 13 months I didn’t sense any improvement. I have been binge listening to Dr Steven Park’s excellent Breathe Better, Sleep Better, Live Better podcast where he talks a lot about treating obstructive sleep apnea. He uses the analogy of climbing a treatment ladder starting with simple devices, machines, and working our way up to surgery until we get the result you need. My mum’s death has highlighted the importance of taking responsibility for my life and my own health, so I decided I needed to step up and take some action on this. I’ll talk about this in my next post.

For the sake of completeness, here’s my fourteen months usage graph, and the CPAP pressure trend analysis graphs covering the period up to 30/11/2021:

Fourteen Months Vivos mRNA Appliance Usage.
Fourteenth month Vivos mRNA Appliance CPAP Pressure trend, heading in the wrong direction.
Fourteen months Vivos mRNA Appliance CPAP Pressure trend.
Fourteenth Month Vivos mRNA Appliance AHI and Event Trend.
Fourteen Months Vivos mRNA Appliance AHI and Event Trend.

Graham Stoney

I'm a guy in his early 50's, recovering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Severe Obstructive Sleep Apnea.

25 Comments

Jena · August 14, 2022 at 7:48 AM

Why does no one mention the MSE as a better step and less invasive than surgery? I questioned my orthodontist who is going to do it about the lack of forward expansion and he said while i can use a facemark after the initial break, he finds most people don’t need anymore forward exhpansion. I find this hard to believe. I’m in the homeoblock and I hate it, it’s a nightmare – if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask!

    Graham Stoney · August 14, 2022 at 9:37 AM

    MSE expands sideways, not forwards which is what I need, and it does nothing for the mandible. I’ve also heard several reports of asymmetric expansion with it which is very hard to correct. I suspect the reason orthodontists like it is because it’s less invasive and they can do it without having to become a surgeon but orthognathic surgeons don’t use it because it’s unpredictable. I haven’t seen research showing that MSE can cure severe obstructive sleep apnea.

    Andrea · October 6, 2022 at 8:00 AM

    Jena — can you please elaborate? I have OSA and am strongly considering HomeoBlock. Why is it “a nightmare?” How long have you been on it, what are your goals with it, etc? As many details as you can share would be so so appreciated. Thank you!

Christofer · June 11, 2022 at 2:12 PM

Thanks for sharing this. I want to ask you some questions.

At what speed did you expand when it comes to your width?

Dr. Gary Adams in Maryland has used the DNA appliance for a while and has explained that he has seen good bone growth via scans (no tipping I assume) in 100s of such cases. However, he explains that he expands at a very low expansion rate to avoid complications and to promote good bone growth. He writes the following: “I’ve seen bone growth in 100s of cases [He is here referring to DNA appliance cases]. And yes in scans. All that being said, it still needs to be done slowly and carefully. And it needs to be done by an experienced provider. All I can tell you if you are skeptical (as you should be) is the process is very slow. I usually have my adult patients expand the appliances 1/4mm per 2-3 weeks. To give you a comparison, rapid palatal expansion is 1/4mm per 2-3 days. Your worst case scenario is that something bad happens really slowly and you can quit before you get a bad result.”.

Did you add chewing during the process? Mike Mew has speculated that a good way to mitigate flaring issues while expanding is to add chewing in the process. If you had chewed plenty with your molars every day (way more than the average person chews when relying on a modern soft diet) then my guess is that you might have seen less flaring. Personally I recommend chewing of hard gum.

Did you make sure to always have your tongue in your entire hard palate throughout the process? Also known as “mewing”. Mewing during DNA appliance treatment is most likely very crucial for promoting an optimal outcome. I expanded my underdeveloped maxilla myself at adult age via my tongue alone (I added chewing as well but I doubt that factored in for the actual expansion given that I am an adult). The tongue can seemingly be a very powerful tool even in adults, at least in some. I did not mew in the standard way though, I pushed upwards with my tongue pretty much non-stop while awake when not eating or speaking. This quickly became a habit of me to do, so it is not like I had to keep thinking about it after the first few weeks of learning myself to do so. I can share some documentation of my experience with you soon if you so want.

Did the doctor that used the DNA appliance in you talk anything about the importance of the springs located in the front of the device? Did he/she explain that they are supposed to vibrate against your incisors every time you swallow and that this is imperative for the process? If so, did you ensure that your tongue always was up making good contact with the device when swallowing? (Something which naturally happens if you mew sufficiently).

    Graham Stoney · June 29, 2022 at 4:46 PM

    Hi Christofer. Thanks for your questions. I expanded at 1/4mm per week, although the actual rate would have been about half this because the screw was winding back without me noticing it. Yes, I chewed hard foods and mastic gum a lot early in the process before the mid-treatment CBCT scan showing my teeth tipping. I practiced mewing and myofunctional therapy, although I couldn’t do both at the same time. I am aware of the alleged purpose of the springs. I guess I have my tongue on the device when swallowing but I don’t eat with it in so I doubt I’m swallowing all that often.

Ted Gross, DDS · January 23, 2022 at 1:04 PM

Expansion in the lower arch generally involves more tipping than actual bone enlargement. The maxilla will expand at the palatal suture. Do you have any upper anterior diastemas that were not present initially? I am in the 9th month of expansion with a combination transverse, schwartz and Frankel oral appliance. I have experienced 4mm of intermolar width expansion with increasing need to wear the appliance more to avoid rebound.

    Doug Toombs · January 28, 2022 at 12:27 PM

    Dr. Gross –

    You should watch the most recent Airway Health Solutions video with Dr. Miraglia (I saw you mention AHS in another comment here on Graham’s blog). Dr. Miraglia notes that he does see a small diastema open up on the lowers in the patients he treats. Maybe it’s not in every patient case, but he said he does see it happen.

Stefan Stolt · January 20, 2022 at 6:36 PM

Dear Graham

Regarding facemask use in adults I have gotten the info from John Mew that it would need to be weared for 22 hours or more per day to have any appreciable effect in adults. I think that at least is would need to be worn for more than 12 hours per day but the effect would probably be negliable. It is possible to move the facial bones but they tend to go back unless the constant subconsiuos posture is changed to hold them in the New position.

Regarding uprigthing of incisors without retraction I think the only way to do that is by correct oral posture. Any action from braces or aligners would probably be somewhat retractive.

Best regards,

Murali Pachipulusu · January 20, 2022 at 9:41 AM

Sorry for your loss Graham, Stay strong.
You mentioned that angle between maxillary incisors and the maxilla is in the range of 108-112 degrees. Is there anything like that for molars?

    Graham Stoney · January 20, 2022 at 12:03 PM

    Great question. I haven’t found an answer to this yet but if anyone knows, I’d love to hear it.

      Stefan Stolt · January 20, 2022 at 6:25 PM

      There is, search for Curve of Monson(combi action of curve of Spee and curve of Wilson)

      G. S. Monson (1869–1933), American dentist] The curve of occlusion of natural teeth in which each cusp and incisal edge touches or conforms to a segment of the surface of a sphere 20.3cm (8in.) in diameter, with its centre in the region of the glabella.

Kevin · January 20, 2022 at 3:16 AM

Sorry to hear about your loss Graham.

I am also sorry to hear about the lack of progress with the DNA device. I too and wondering how much progress I am making and plan on taking to my dentist in the spring, and I will ask for a measurement.
I have been waiting much longer between device adjustments and I do feel that this helps prevent teeth tipping. Also, I use nasal dialators and night, and they work, however after a few nights I have to stop because my nose becomes irritated. This is the best brand I have found:
Rhinomed Turbine Nasal Dilator for Athletic Breathing Improves Airflow during exercise Flexible and Lightweight https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W6XIU88/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_XVF0SSGPP5FM4HWNC97T?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

    Graham Stoney · January 20, 2022 at 8:43 AM

    Thanks for the suggestion. I tried Max Air Nose Cones for a while, but now I’ve had nasal surgery they’re pretty much redundant.

    Ben · April 4, 2022 at 8:57 AM

    Hi Graham, sorry if I missed it somewhere else but what nasal surgery did you have? Septoplasty?

Judith Coyle · January 20, 2022 at 12:38 AM

Really sorry to hear about your mother’s death. X

Janet · January 19, 2022 at 11:10 PM

I’m so sorry about your mom. Thanks very much for sharing your experiences from the beginning. It’s a huge help to so many of us who’ve had trouble finding good info about the Vivos DNA. My previous dentist felt strongly that I should do whatever I could to be able to use the DNA but it was far, far outside of my budget. It’s very helpful to be able to read about your experience, although I do hope that the DNA ultimately helps you.

Sean Smith · January 19, 2022 at 11:23 AM

Thank you for your update Graham. It’s helpful to me as I evaluate treatment options. I wish the healthcare system made it easier for patients to get information. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences.

Roger Daniels · January 19, 2022 at 11:12 AM

I hate to say it but this aligns with what a lot of the Vivos deniers have been saying all along. It looks like all you’ve gotten is some dentoalveolar expansion. The facemask was doomed from the beginning and I would just give up on that right now. There’s no physical way the maxilla can come forward with a facemask when all of the sutures are still intact…unless you believe the facemask is causing some kind of slow bone remodeling, but it appears that theory hasn’t worked with the Vivos appliance, so I don’t see why it would work with the facemask…and your scan results basically prove that.

I would recommend you just cut your losses and look into surgical expansion (ideally EASE), and/or MMA surgery. When done with a talented surgeon, it’s relatively uninvasive and leads to very meaningful changes that you will feel immediately, and won’t require many months of looking closely for incremental changes that may or may not be happening.

    Clark · January 19, 2022 at 11:58 PM

    What about other patients’ before/after CT scans, such as ones on the Vivos patient facebook group, that did not show dental tipping?

    I am on the fence on forward maxilla expansion, I don’t think the face mask elastics can exert nearly any where as much force as the tongue to remodel bone

Hi · January 19, 2022 at 9:46 AM

Sorry for your loss.

As far as teeth tipping goes, I heard that the bottom teeth follow top. So if there is anyway to try to chew hard foods to get them back on track. Carrots is a good one. You can feel facial pressure when crunching down.

    Possibly · January 19, 2022 at 9:48 AM

    Possibly get a steiners analysis done. Or a 3D Ct scan? That way you can see resukts in 3D format and won’t be exposed to traditional X-rays? Idk how much radiation is in the 3D one though

Leah · January 19, 2022 at 8:58 AM

Hi Graham, thank you for your 14 month update. I am sorry for your loss and sorry that your results are far less than what you hoped for. It’s hard to believe you have expanded so little. This is so disappointing. I have been wearing the DNA for about 6 months with a CPAP and my sleep has become worse than usual. I think it’s due to the appliance leaving less room for my tongue when I wear it. I’m considering re-visiting the MMA route and it sounds like you might be too.

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