I’m a huge fan of Canadian psychologist Dr Jordan Peterson, who I discovered after stumbling across his psychology lectures on his YouTube channel. I particularly enjoyed his series of talks on The Psychological Significance of The Bible Stories, which helped put my childhood religious indoctrination into perspective for me.
But it was something he said in a recent interview that really got my attention.
Dr Peterson has struggled with his own health over the past year, heading off to Russia of all places to get treated for anxiety and benzodiazepine dependence. Now he’s back promoting his new book, I was stunned to hear his description of the daily hell he has been living in during this interview with Brett Weinstein (at 33:07):
The description sounded hauntingly familiar to me, and I immediately thought:
“I bet he’s got obstructive sleep apnea!”
That would explain his untreatable depression, anxiety, and myriad of mysterious health problems he’s been increasingly struggling with. A close look at Jordan’s lower jaw confirmed malocclusion typical of the underdeveloped jaws that lead to obstructive sleep apnea; a risk factor that doctors generally don’t know to look for.
I sent Jordan an email saying:
Dear Dr Peterson,
I suspect you probably get a lot of messages from people with misguided suggestions about your health, so please bear with me…
Your description of daily hell in your S4 E10 podcast with Brett Weinstein at 33:07 was eerily familiar to me. I’m currently recovering from a chronic physical and mental health catastrophe caused by undiagnosed obstructive sleep apnea, and I suspect you may also have undiagnosed OSA.
Here’s why: My experience of the medical community is that most doctor’s understanding of the risk factors for OSA is very poor, not recognising airway factors such as malocclusion, which I notice you have on your lower jaw. The symptoms you describe also fit chronic deep sleep deprivation remarkably well, and since the effect of OSA occurs while we’re asleep, it’s not uncommon for people with it to think they’re sleeping fine; yet wake up every day feeling terrible without any obvious cause.
I don’t deny your experience of benzodiazepine withdrawal, and undiagnosed OSA would magnify all the symptoms you have been experiencing dramatically. Research shows that 80% of people with OSA are undiagnosed so it’s understandable that you may have missed this, despite extensive efforts to fix what is going on for you physiologically.
Your work has meant a lot to me so I wanted to reach out and suggest that you have a polysomnograph to rule out OSA if you haven’t already done so. There’s a lot more I could say about this and I would be delighted to talk with you if you’d like to know more. It’s so great having you back, and I’d love to see you feeling really well again.
Sincerely,
Graham Stoney
CFS/OSA Survivor
https://cfs-survivors.org/
While waiting for a reply, I found that just a month after his interview with Bret Weinstein, Russell Brand published this interview where Dr Peterson reveals that he has indeed just been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea (at 2:33):
Unfortunately in classic narcissistic style, Russell skips straight over the bombshell diagnosis that Dr Peterson has just dropped, and instead launches into his personal pet topic: addiction.
The next day I get a reply from Dr Peterson confirming that he does in fact have sleep apnea and asking why I pointed to jaw malocclusion. This was my reply:
Hi Jordan,
I used to be a biomedical engineer prior to being forced into “retirement” due to my mystery illness, so I did a lot of research to investigate the root cause of sleep apnea. What I found blew my mind and isn’t widely recognised yet by medical science: Malocclusion is a symptom of underdeveloped jaws which can leave too little space in our mouth for our tongue, which gets forced backwards into our airway during sleep. Here’s an article I wrote with more details on the cascade of events that can cause this: https://cfs-survivors.org/blog/2020/07/27/what-really-causes-obstructive-sleep-apnea/
I am curious that you say you have central sleep apnea though, rather than obstructive. Are you having obstructive events as well? I had very few central events on my original sleep study, but I get more of them now I’m on CPAP and I gather it’s a common side-effect of CPAP therapy. While I don’t have conclusive evidence for this, I seem to get more central events when I’m under emotional stress, such as when my father passed away last year. Poor sleep compounds emotional stress, setting up something of a vicious cycle, and perhaps this was the case for you too given what you’ve been going through in the last couple of years.
I’m truly hoping having your sleep apnea treated will restore your health and vitality; it may even make sense of your depression and other physical health challenges at last. I can’t see myself sleeping with a machine for the rest of my life, so I’m pursuing treatment to expand my jaws and fix the underlying structural problems causing mine. Sleep apnea is an area where I honestly think mainstream science hasn’t caught up with reality yet, so If there’s anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Cheers,
Graham Stoney
CFS/OSA Survivor
https://cfs-survivors.org/
Mike Mew does a deep dive into Dr Peterson’s facial features which are likely to be causing his sleep apnea, in this interview:
I haven’t heard back from Dr Peterson, but I’m hoping this opens the door to an interview on his podcast down the track when my treatment is completed so can raise awareness of this devastating health condition.
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12 Comments
Robbie · March 29, 2022 at 3:15 PM
@clark, I am just wondering how you went with your treatment? I am in the same boat and I am also coincidently located in Sydney.
Martin McPhilimey · November 9, 2021 at 5:07 PM
Hello, Graham. Thanks for sharing your insight into Dr Peterson’s issues with sleep apnoea. I also was suspicious of him having problems related to sleep-disordered breathing when he mentioned that his snoring stopped once he stopped eating sugary foods back in 2017. I already had a hypothesis about how environmental factors could lead to OSA or CSA, and Jordan discussing this on a podcast made me write my blog. In case you would like to take a read, I have linked below.
https://performancethroughhealth.com/obstructive-sleep-apnoea-as-a-result-of-environmental-hormonal-and-psychological-factors-in-non-obese-individuals/
I feel your hypothesis has flaws because the malocclusions and tongue position relates to obstructive sleep apnoea. JP has stated that he has Central sleep apnoea, which is an entirely different disease etiology. This is more likely due to sedative medications he has been using for many years for his anxiety and mental health issues. However, he could have a combination of both.
I thought I would comment because I was looking for the video where Jordan Peterson discusses his diagnoses and found it through your website.
Kind regards,
Martin
Amanda · August 18, 2021 at 1:31 AM
I came across your ANS review months ago when I was desperately trying to find a cure for my debilitating lifestyle due to extreme and chronic fatigue. I think I just thought, “great news that you found out more about your health”. I do snore, but I’m a woman, not overweight, I sleep 12 hours or more, never wake up gasping, no headaches, etc. so I did not relate. I had a sleep study in June, I thought this was a great thing to rule out so that maybe I could get a ME diagnosis and start some kind of treatment. I meditate, do 5 or 10 minute chores or rowing, rest often, practice STOP ing the anxious thoughts and being in the present. Then my sleep doctor forgot to send me my results, I called at the end of July and was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea. I honestly think that this is an autonomic nervous system rewiring problem, because 37 times an hour my brain has to go on high alert (ie I could be dying) to wake me up and make me breath again while I sleep. All the meditation, mindfulness and changing my thinking in the world would have stiff competition to what my sympathetic nervous system endures while I sleep. I hopefully start a c-pap trial tomorrow. I hope that your quality of life is starting to improve and that c-pap is helping. I’m hoping to start some light exercise (I used to be a running coach and lift weights and dance) and I’m excited to hear that you are exercising and drumming now. What is your new apnea events (ahi) score with treatment?
Graham Stoney · August 18, 2021 at 8:00 AM
Hi Amanda,
That’s great news that you found out more about your health! When I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea, my sleep specialist commented: “Well that would make you tired”. I believe the constant arousals from obstructive sleep apnea are what led my ANS to go on high alert because my problem is structural caused by underdeveloped jaws. As you say, all the meditation in the world isn’t going to fix this. I hope you get some success with CPAP. My AHI has been gradually reducing over time, which you can see in this chart from my latest update. My AHI with CPAP is now under 5 about 80% of the time and I’m hoping that my Vivos mRNA will ultimately liberate me from the machine. Let me know how you get on.
Cheers,
Graham
Alexander · January 7, 2022 at 11:25 PM
Hi Amanda
Your story is the same as mine I to have severe OSA. I am fit slim 46 years old. I am on a cpap and have high blood pressure. I feel this is all connected. I never had any of these problems before.
Jared · August 3, 2021 at 8:39 PM
Semi-unrelated to the main essence of this post, but I was curious about whether Russell Brand also has had orthodontics in the past and upon closer inspection it seems that he has the typical 4 premolars missing. Looking at younger photos of him (where his jaw hasn’t been contoured by his beard) it’s evident that his face was quite long (and dare I say unattractive). I suspect he has since had botox and jaw filler since becoming more famous to hide that fact. Even in the way he speaks – he has this very slight nasal drawl in his voice that to me unmistakably sounds like someone who has a vaulted palate.
Clark · July 26, 2021 at 11:27 AM
As you can see from this volumetric assessment taken from the Vivos FB patient group
https://i.imgur.com/q4B9fRB.png
As an UARS patient, my airway has more volume and less obstruction pre-Vivos than most OSA patients post Vivos, however given the structural underdevelopment issues are still present, I have a severe bottle neck up top at the posterior nasopharynx
The goal of CPAP is stent the airway open and prevent soft tissue collapsing, but my problem area is above the soft palate, no amount of air blasting will helps me
I am seeing Dr Julia Crawford in Darlinghurst, she is one of the few handful of robotic ENT surgeons in Australia, and lucky us her other subspeciality is sleep, I was referred to her by my immunologist (same clinic, Dr Jessica Tattersall) who interestingly is aware of expansion orthodontics (did not just call it a MAD splint like Dr Larry Kalish), seems promising if an ENT’s colleague also knows about it, perhaps Jalal might benefit as a provider if they could network
Graham Stoney · July 26, 2021 at 12:16 PM
That does sound promising. I hope Dr Crawford is able to treat your UARS effectively. It must be a bitch trying to nasal breathe with a severe bottle neck up top at the posterior nasopharynx. Dr Larry Kalish is the ENT who told me that palate expansion did not improve nasal airway resistance, even after I sent him extracts from almost 30 papers showing that it does. I was not impressed with him. Cheers, Graham.
Clark · August 2, 2021 at 1:08 PM
Dr Crawford echoed my hypothesis, while my narrow posterior nasopharynx does contribute to resistance, most of my ENT anatomy aren’t that far from a healthy control’s, of all the parts of the soft palate or tongue base that can cause obstruction, does not, while a drug induced sleep endoscopy is good for observing abnormalities, it isn’t for OSA as propofol requires ventilation and they won’t be able to differentiate how much is from ventilator and how much is from the drug
I have only been on Vivos properly for about 4 months, she was open minded to it having helped, although my symptoms have not improved, the good news is I absolutely do not qualify for non-cosmetic MMA surgery (if soft tissue is a non issue then hard tissue even less so), the bad news is the next competing hypothesis I have is a messy “combination of many secondary issues with no leading cause”, she doesn’t even think I even have UARS (and labs need a bit of specialisation to look for that), namely “some resistance from the nasopharynx”, which pushes me to mouth breathe during sleep which itself contributes to chronic fatigue, exacerbated by slightly narrow maxilla and palate, followed by rapid breathing leading to poor O2 sat & nitric oxide absorption
She referred me to a proper sleep physician (surgeons study techniques, doctors study cause and disease) for a sleep study, Dr Dev Banerjee, have you consulted him before?
Graham Stoney · August 2, 2021 at 1:29 PM
Oh man, this whole thing is so complex it does my head in. No I haven’t consulted with Dr Banerjee, but a sleep study definitely sounds like a good idea if you haven’t had one already. Good luck! Cheers, Graham
Clark · July 25, 2021 at 6:17 PM
You don’t say, while looking up youtube to setup my second hand CPAP machine, I noticed the hosts all have some combination of similar features, facial midline asymmetry, sagging eyes, blocked/nasal voice, dental crowding, tongue tie, mandibular retrognathia (especially a crease or depression in the cheek from zygomaticus major), mouth breathing/improper lip seal, sharp breaths between sentences, etc etc
I’ve never seen Peterson’s podcasts, but even just a few seconds in, those mouth exhales and deep nose inhales, which results in his choppy speech manner, is immediate noticeable, it’d be nothing short of a miracle for him not to have malocclusion with that dental crowding
Oddly enough, I fall into that weird gap of an UARS patient that neither has OSA nor benefitting from CPAP, will confirm with a sleep surgeon ENT in August (if delta doesn’t turn Sydney into a crater)
Graham Stoney · July 25, 2021 at 7:26 PM
For sure Clark; it blows my mind that it took me ten solid years of intense suffering to work out what was wrong with me, and how useless doctors were at spotting the signs. Once you know what to look for, it’s obvious. Let me know which sleep surgeon ENT you see and how it goes; I’m in Sydney too. Cheers, Graham