Note: This post may contain statements that I no longer consider true.
See: The Vivos mRNA Appliance Didn't Improve My Obstructive Sleep Apnea.
OK folks here it is… my long-await five month Vivos mRNA Appliance update.
My average daily usage is currently 16.09 hours/day. I have expanded the upper appliance a total of 5.3 mm sideways and forwards, the lower appliance 4 mm, and stopped advancing the lower at 5.8 mm when it started causing tension in my jaw muscles.
Here’s my overall usage graph so far:
Five Months of Vivos mRNA Usage
My facemask usage dropped off somewhat over summer since I didn’t want to wear it at the beach, but now that we’re headed into autumn and I’m back at university I intend to wear it as much as possible. Taking almost all of my classes online will allow me to manage my time in order to do this better than if I had to travel to classes every day.
The really good news this month is that the pressure trend from my CPAP machine is finally headed in the right direction, suggesting that the appliance and other exercises are indeed improving my airway:
Fourth and Fifth Months CPAP Stats
Due to last month’s debacle where I put my CF card back in the CPAP machine write-protected and lost the first two weeks of data, I’ve included the last two weeks of last month’s data in the chart.
CPAP data is so noisy that one month really isn’t a guarantee and it’s still too early to give up my CPAP machine yet, but at least I seem to be heading in the right direction. However, I’m still not back where I started and the pressure trend over the entire time I’ve been using the Vivos mRNA Appliance is still increasing:
CPAP Pressure Trend Over Five Months Vivos mRNA Usage
Next month I should get an idea whether I’m continuing to reverse this trend.
I had a consultation with Breathing Consultant Roger Price at the beginning of the month to assess my breathing. He measured my exhaled CO2 and said I was breathing to fast, causing the level of CO2 in my blood to be too low to facilitate oxygen absorption by my haemoglobin. He instructed me to use the Address Stress app to practice diaphragmatic breathing at a slower rate, which I’ve been doing every day this month. I’m now halfway through the Advanced Slow program, and finding the 3 daily exercises easy.
Roger also suggested that the muscles in my neck and upper chest were tense and referred me to Physiotherapist Brendan McGovern to get them released. Brendan gave me some manual treatment and a few extra exercises to practise which I now do daily along with my adhesive capsulitis exercises and myfunctional therapy exercises.
I’ve also started doing push-ups, squats, running along the beach and body-boarding, which doesn’t seem to give me post-exertional malaise any more. I even broke my body-board nosediving in the surf yesterday; here it is in all it’s busted glory:
How hard core is that?
Overall my health seems to be continuing to improve significantly. I still take rests in the afternoon most days and occasionally fall asleep, but this depends a lot on how much physical activity I’ve been doing during the morning and the day before.
32 Comments
Shauna · January 31, 2022 at 4:52 AM
Thank you so much for these updates. So helpful! I am curious, do you know anyone that has told you the Vives has worked for them? Do you have anyone with personal experience where it completely healed their sleep apnea?
Erik · September 9, 2021 at 1:44 PM
In regards to slowing your exhalation, nothing works better then the “relaxator device”.. Turn the resistance up to about 4 and do 10-15min breath work session’s.. It will make a massive difference to your breathing throughout the day…
Emma Cooksey · March 27, 2021 at 12:31 PM
Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for your detailed descriptions. I feel thoroughly fed up trying to figure out whether to do the MRNA or just resign myself to CPAP. I’m in the US and I’ve had some really disheartening conversations with Sleep Doctors. They have absolutely no idea what I’m talking about when I mention that I’m doing myofunctional therapy and considering options for palate expansion. I’m an ordinary person (I mean, extremely motivated to find solutions but still not a medical professional) but this is their job, wouldn’t you think you’d try to stay up on the latest developments and treatment possibilities? Anyway, thanks for posting about your story, it’s helpful to feel like I’m not alone. Emma
Graham Stoney · March 27, 2021 at 1:44 PM
Oh man I totally relate Emma. When I started asking my highly-paid sleep specialist about palate expansion, his eyes glazed over and he referred me to a specialist at Australia’s supposedly leading sleep research institute; who also knew nothing about it. How can a specialist treat people every day and not even be aware of current developments? This is definitely a field where patients are leading the way in educating doctors, so I’m glad my story is helping other people not feel so alone.
I notice you have a podcast: that’s awesome. I’d happily be a guest down the track in a few months when I’ve (hopefully) kicked my CPAP machine to the kerb.
Cheers,
Graham
Emma Cooksey · March 28, 2021 at 12:19 AM
Graham,
Yes, Iād love to interview you on my podcast. I started Sleep Apnea Stories to give a platform to people just like us. How great it would be to celebrate a milestone like no more CPAP with you! Iāll definitely stay in touch. In the meantime Iām leaning towards the MRNA so weāll see what the dentist says about it next week…
All my best,
Emma
Graham Stoney · March 28, 2021 at 11:36 AM
Awesome, I’ll have my people call your people. Let us know how you get on at the dentist. Cheers, Graham.
Lana Tasker · March 23, 2021 at 4:54 AM
Are you sure your getting jaw movement and not just teeth movement?
Graham Stoney · March 23, 2021 at 7:07 AM
I seem to be, but I won’t know for sure until I have a follow-up sleep study or CBCT scan.
Dylan · March 20, 2021 at 5:14 PM
Hi Graham
I read in one of your comments that you are chewing mastic gum to help with your expansion, do you mind sharing how you have been using it and if it has helped, also what brand you are using and recomended times and duration.
I got fitted with a DNA appliance in Perth 5-6 years ago but stopped using it due to a stressful time in my life and other health issues. After reading your posts i found my old appliance and started wearing it again using some of your the information you have thoroughly researched.
Thank you for sharing your experience in such detail
Kind Regards
Dylan
Graham Stoney · March 20, 2021 at 7:10 PM
Hi Dylan. I chew mastic gum whenever I donāt have anything else in my mouth. I canāt say for sure how much it helps but chewing promotes bone growth so it may help. I chew 2 pieces at a time and they last several days because it doesnāt really break down. I get mine on eBay: just search for āmastic gumā and pick a supplier from Greece. Theyāre all much the same. Cheers, Graham
Harry · March 16, 2021 at 11:21 AM
Is there a reason why my comment was deleted? I asked about the video from Jaw Hacks regarding Homeoblock and DNA…
Graham Stoney · March 16, 2021 at 12:21 PM
It wasn’t deleted, it was in the moderation queue. I’ve since approved and responded to it.
Harry · March 17, 2021 at 12:17 AM
Thank you! I was so confused as to why it was there for a bit and then disappeared. You really have done more research than I could imagine, it’s a real rabbit hole.
Best wishes and I hope you’re getting healthier!
Graham Stoney · March 17, 2021 at 8:04 AM
Thanks Harry.
Harry · March 16, 2021 at 10:15 AM
I was wondering your thoughts about this video regarding James Nestor’s book – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLAiZFnFs0
Though it’s primarily about homeoblock, DNA is so similar and is mentioned as supposedly suffering the same drawbacks. What informed you as to your decision to go for DNA rather than MSE?
Graham Stoney · March 16, 2021 at 12:17 PM
I haven’t read the book yet but I have listened to the interview with Joe Rogan that Ronald mentions, where James Nestor describes his positive experience with Homeoblock in improving his breathing and sleep apnea. In the comments on Ronald’s video 4 Problems with James Nestor’s Homeoblock from 5 months ago you can see me ask how he explains the positive results that James Nestor reported getting with his Homeoblock. Ronald doesn’t respond but the dialogue with “Mister Mike” is insightful in that his argument against Homeoblock is based on speculation and ignores the science on bone remodelling.
I cover the differences between DNA and Homeoblock here, and my reason for choosing DNA over MSE here. Cheers, Graham
Sam · March 14, 2021 at 2:23 PM
Graham, your articles have been extremely helpful. I just paid for my DNA appliance. I really hope it will move my jaws forward so that I won’t have to undergo double-jaw surgery. I’m curious about your statement above (i.e., I have expanded the upper appliance a total of 5.3 mm sideways and forwards). Does that mean you’ve achieved 5.3mm forward growth of maxilla since the treatment began?
Graham Stoney · March 14, 2021 at 3:03 PM
It would appear to be so.
ss · March 11, 2021 at 3:10 PM
Can you comment more on how you feel during the day? Have you actually seen physical changes in your jaw? Are you going to have ct scans to measure the inside volumne of your throat? I was recently ‘pitched’ this product by a dentist, who is really quite smart, but I’m very weary of doctors and dentists pushing products. It’s so clear that every dentist that offers these dna appliances have the exact same content on their websites about it, because it was provided by the company as part of their sales strategy. May I ask what they charged you? Mine said about $13k USD over 2 years.
ALso regarding your cpap, I have a cpap as well. I don’t think you should really expect that to be a measure of effectiveness at all. The machine will not drop much further than it already is. A minimum amount of pressure is requried just to breath normally, (to equalize, basically)…you can try it yourself, by just wearing it sitting up for an hour, if you’re up for it. Will not drop further than it is, I’d bet.
Graham Stoney · March 13, 2021 at 7:58 AM
I still don’t feel 100% well yet, but my health is steadily improving. My hunch is that I don’t sleep particularly deeply with a CPAP mask and a facemask on my face, but I haven’t had a sleep study to confirm this since it’s not permanent anyway. I’m pretty active now, studying full-time and going to the beach every second day. I wouldn’t say I notice physical changes other than the 5 mm gaps in the appliance, but it’s such a gradual process it’s like asking a kid if they notice changes each day when they look in the mirror. I see gaps in my front teeth which didn’t used to be there, which you can see in my report from last month. I’d really like to see space for my crowded lower front teeth, but I don’t see any evidence of that yet.
I understand your concern about spending a lot of money on the appliance based solely on a pitch from a dentist. I did my own research and decided it was worth pursuing. I paid about A$9000 for mine. It’s not as easy as Dr Singh makes out to wear the appliance 16 hours a day, so if you’re not totally committed to doing that I’d recommend waiting until you are. I organise my whole life around the appliance and to do that for 2 years straight is a BIG commitment. It’ll be worth it if means I can avoid MMA surgery, but right now I’m less than a quarter of the way through my treatment and it’s heavy going sometimes.
My Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset CPAP machine doesn’t start ramping up the pressure until it detects that I’ve fallen asleep, and I’ve not been able to fool it into doing that while still awake. If I just sat up with it on I’m guessing it would keep blowing a minimal pressure and not even start ramping because it knows I’m still awake. I haven’t really messed around with this sort of thing much since I’d rather invest my time and effort in doing the expansion so I can get rid of the machine entirely. The minimum pressure my machine goes to is 4 but it’s currently set to 5 since that’s what the sleep specialist’s prescription said and there’s no point changing that until it drops down to 5 automatically; which hasn’t happened yet.
Kelly · March 9, 2021 at 6:12 PM
Hi Graham, we have spoken before and I am watching your progress keenly. Still stuck down the rabbit hole exploring options. Did you talk with Derek Mahony about the homeoblock at all? I can see that it is not what he recommended for you.
Graham Stoney · March 9, 2021 at 6:37 PM
Hi Kelly. It’s a rabbit hole all right. I only had one half-hour consultation with Derek Mahony, and what I learned was quite overwhelming. He told me my sleep apnea was the result of the orthodontic extraction/retraction I’d had as a child, that I needed CPAP urgently, and DOME plus MMA surgery. He didn’t mention Homeoblock, and wasn’t on the provider list Theodore Belfor sent me after my consultation with him, so I was surprised to see Derek’s testimonial on Theodore’s website saying he uses the appliance. In hindsight I wish I’d gone back to ask what his fall-back plan was after Greg Lvoff said I wasn’t suitable for MMA surgery, but I was spending a lot of money on “second” opinions, and Vivos was about to become available so I went with it instead.
Greg · March 6, 2021 at 3:10 AM
Hey, in analyzing your month 2 to month 5 data overall, it appears that your pressure levels went up a little and now they are sorta back down to where they started – heading hopefully in a continued downward direction. Next month will be more critical to see if the numbers continue downward and if they can get below the start.
Also: “unless I stumble on a way to get Microsoft Excel to exclude zeros from the linear regression” – Wouldnt a solution be to just replace the zeros with filled in averaged dummy values to span that gap. This graph is rather important – and not great to remove it.
Graham Stoney · March 6, 2021 at 8:42 AM
Yes I absolutely agree. Also, I found that just deleting the rows with the missing data stopped the linear analysis from including the zeros and causes Excel to fill in the missing dates with whitespace. I’ve updated the article and added the resulting five month pressure trend graph.
Joi · March 3, 2021 at 3:05 PM
Hi Graham! Thank you so much for sharing your experience and this is very helpful to me because I am considering choosing the DNA appliance to solve my sleep apnea. I am happy for you that this helps you expand your maxilla and sleep better! But there is one thing I am concerning about: how the DNA Appliance changed your face? I am worrying about if the expanded and forwarded maxilla will makes me ugly š because it makes face wider? Or it will provide a positive effect on face? I would like to know your opinion:) Thank you!
Graham Stoney · March 3, 2021 at 6:54 PM
It will make you look like Brad Pitt.
Clark · March 1, 2021 at 7:32 PM
Hi Graham
Excellent news to hear that your have good progress with Vivos as noted by the downtrend and a tangible reduction in CFS, I am 4 months behind you but given my issues are not oropharyngeal related I am not experiencing any improvement, I realised the outcome for me at this point really just boils down to waiting for surgery for my nasal blockage, and the rest is all physio for those undeveloped tongue, jaw, cheek, lip, and thoracic posture
What are you currently studying at university? I recall you worked in engineering before CFS really took hold
Graham Stoney · March 1, 2021 at 7:39 PM
Thanks Clark. I hope surgery gives you the result you desire. I’m studying music at Sydney University/The Conservatorium.
Clark · March 2, 2021 at 10:24 AM
Good old conservatorium, long at odds with VC Spence wanting to run the place like a business, he’s gone now at least
After 2 hours of wishy washy “patient-centered care” after attending a tutorial I had realised the grave errors in ignoring my cognitive dissonance in choosing nursing as a profession. I will withdraw from some of the classes but keep the ones that are interesting such as anatomy & pathology
After looking at our nasal CT scans and consulting with my radiologist friend, I realised radiography is in function what I had in mind within a career in health, not so much the direct care of nursing, I just feel all those grey cells being under utilised if CFS is the only thing that’s holding us back. I want to work in pediatrics and I feel that, telling a 6 year old the big booming MRI machine (hopefully with some decorations) is a spaceship is much more fulfilling than say, changing your 4th diaper of the day
That being said most likely not making it through that 95 selection rank for USYD next year unless I manage to get HDs everywhere this year, not entirely thrilled about studying in canberra/wagga wagga/port macquarie (even though selection for their programs are in the 50-60s), but hey, the end work crowns the effort, life is too short to be stuck in a career you hate
Graham Stoney · March 2, 2021 at 10:50 AM
“life is too short to be stuck in a career you hate” – Amen to that.
Adi · March 10, 2021 at 6:29 PM
Iām planning to get MSE get rid of my allergies, then the DNA appliance to get forward expansion to get rid of my sleep apnea. What do you think about that?
Graham Stoney · March 10, 2021 at 6:43 PM
I think it would be worth showing an MSE provider and a DNA appliance provider your CBCT scan and seeing what they recommend. If you use a Facemask with your MSE, you may not need to do the DNA appliance to get forward growth. Conversely, if you use a DNA appliance it may get rid of your allergies without needing to do MSE.